A CONVERSATION WITH SINGER-SONGWRITER, PRODUCER BIKÔKÔ
LONDON-BASED artist NEÏ
aka BIKÔKÔ expresses hERSELF about MUSIC, personal LIFE AND PHILOSOPHY.
By Clarisse Prévost
How are you, Neï ? In your life, in your head?
I'm good. Especially since I started doing music after high school. It was really hard for me to tell myself that my music would work. At first, you just don't know. I didn't have an agent, I didn't have anybody. Now I feel like there's something. I'm still a little lost but there’s light.
When did you really start doing music?
Senior year. I've always loved music, my dad is a double bass player. I've always sung but I was very shy when I was little so I only sang alone. But growing up, I knew I couldn't see myself doing anything else. In my last years of high school, I was always focused but it was hard because I wanted to get good grades and also do music so I was really looking forward to finishing.
So when you say you make music you talk about singing but you also produce? Is it even you who do all your productions ?
Yes, I do all my productions. It was not the plan, but when I was 18 I went to New York for three months and made music there. I didn't know anyone, and no producers. But I still wanted to start making my own songs, so I used garageband and the free version of Ableton.
When was the first time you released a track ? Did you go through a stage where you uploaded them privately, didn't dare to put them in public?
I had a little phase where I was posting covers on youtube - I think I took it all down now - and I was posting on soundcloud. In high school, our teacher made us download audacity and I had a crappy microphone that I stole from my brother.
I was also posting videos on instagram but before, nobody knew I was singing except for a few friends. After instagram, people told me they liked it and that gave me confidence. Sometimes I'd post stuff and three months later I'd think it was crap and delete it.
With yourself it's hard to know. You can tell yourself that it sucks just because you’re behind it. It's subjective but with art we sometimes might ask yourself : maybe I'm the only one who likes that ?
Yes, that's just it. When you're doing it alone, it's weird. It's mostly because when you discover things that are so well done by others, it's hard to conceive that yours can be as good. When you do something yourself, you don't think it's that serious.
« my older brother once made me a list of artists that he thought I should listen to. It was DAngelo, Lauryn Hill, Indy Harry. And at that point I thought, I think I want to do this. »
So you grew up in a musical environment. What did you hear as a child?
A lot of things as my father. My dad used to play Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Thelonious Monk. He liked Bach a lot, he played the piano. And my mother likes to dance, so we listened to salsa, cubano songs, latin.
And you were digging?
Yes, as a child I liked it. But I don't have many specific memories of artists I listened to as a child. My older brother once made me a list of artists that he thought I should listen to. It was DAngelo, Lauryn Hill, Indy Harry. And at that point I thought, I think I want to do this. My father has a lot of musician friends, so every summer we would go on a little vacation together in France.
The way you tell things make me things about novels. So I was wondering if you had any particular interest in literature, cinema, arts with storytelling ?
No, not really. I've always been very mathematical, logical. In the literary classes I didn't know where to start. In math what I liked was that there was only one answer. In writing, you have infinite possibilities. And I had a hard time when I started writing songs because I didn't like my style but I kept doing it.
I met a friend from London last summer, he pointed out to me that most of my songs are in English but because it's not my first language, sometimes I structure things in a weird way. It's not like a native speaker would say.
I have that thing with my poetry too. It creates a certain poetry, unplanned nice effect, a nice inconsistency. What do you like to do when you are not making music?
My problem is that I like to do everything! When I discover something I like, I become obsessed. Recently I decided to focus on music. When I'm not making music, I'm doing yoga, or seeing my friends. I need to give myself space.
The space of inspiration that you need to be able to create. Even when you are obsessed with something, you have to leave yourself moments of vagueness that will provide you with the material. Are you a loner ?
Since I was little I have always been sociable, I have always had many friends. But at the age of 13, I already knew that I wanted to leave when I turned 18 to do my own thing. Most of my friends wanted to study here, I didn't. It was in New York that I discovered that I liked being alone. I went to gigs by myself, to the movies.
What was it like for you to grow up in Barcelona?
When I was a kid, it's not that I didn't like Barcelona, but all the cultural content I was getting enjoying was American, English. So I thought "oh if I had grown up there". But now I realize that my background was perfect: it's a small city, the weather is always nice, people are outside. It's very stimulating.
What were you like as a child? Happy, melancholic?
I was a very happy child with a lot of energy, very normal, really. But there was a moment in high school, around 13/14 years old when I started modeling. I was comparing myself to other people, my view on myself started to change. I wasn't going out much, I was staying home, I was going through something. Then I changed. From the outgoing girl I started to assume a more passive role in my friend groups. I became the shy one, I didn't talk much, I observed more. But I always had a very good support system, my friends, my parents.
« This year I've really realized that there's no point in trying to be someONE else, it doesn't work. »
In your last track “Get Her”, you say : “I didn’t realize/ How little love / I had for myself / ‘Till you showed up”. It made me think about how many people want to be in relationships to feel loved. You love yourself because you see the love in the other person's eyes, on you. But sometimes you do that too, because you don't know how to love yourself. It's not something you learn, so it's hard.
It sounds like you realized that you didn't know how to love yourself, or that you didn't love yourself in a healthy way ?
Yes, exactly. It's difficult because when you're a child you're compared to everyone else. You have to figure it out for yourself how to love yourself. When I was 18, I had a boyfriend who used to tell he loved me and I didn't realize that someone could love me more I do.
It's weird because as a teenager I was always trying to be more like everyone else. When I was the quiet one in the groups I secretly wanted to be more outgoing like the others, or that my hair was different, without realizing that it was actually okay. If I'm not the most outgoing it's okay. But I think it's something that happens to all of us to different degrees. This year I've really realized that there's no point in trying to be someone else, it doesn't work.
Yes, if you force yourself to talk, you can even hear by the sound of your voice that it sounds wrong. You got your package and you do what you want with it.
You grew up in a certain way, with relationships that only you have, your family, your entourage. It determines everything.
It sculpts you and you sculpt yourself. Besides, do you have an ideal that you would like to reach? Physical, moral. Typically the fact that you changed your hair color, your haircut, your clothing. Change all of that, was that a way going embracing a new version of yourself ?
I think I've learned to have fewer expectations. I try to be present. All my life I had a super natural look, long hair, curly hair, I never did anything, no tattoos. So when you're modeling you can't do much. This year I realized that I had changed a lot as a person and I wanted to reflect that in my outer appearance. I remember when I cut my hair, my parents looked at me, they thought it was weird. But I love getting feedback, because it reminds me that I don't give a fuck.
Have you seen the show We Are Who We Are ? It's a series by Luca Guadagnino. There's this scene in it where one of the main characters, Caitlyn, a girl with long hair - which also makes her appealing to a lot of boys - who progressively acknowledge her masculine look - and one moment she asks her buddy/lover to cut it all off; It's a beautiful scene.
Do you now have this feeling of loving yourself?
Yes, and more and more. Of course, there are days when I feel less confident. I was in Paris a few days ago to shoot a video. I just received it and thought I didn't like how I looked that day. But in the end, that's what it means to accept everything. I'm not going to be like this all my life. It's accepting and embracing who and where you are right now.
Musically I was also comparing myself, but the artists that I like a lot are very different but have in common that they are simple, they just do what they want. Pinkpantheress for example, she seems herself, very quiet on stage. Every time I think that maybe I should do things more like this, more like that, but in fact you just have to do what you like, that's what makes it work, and to really connect with other people. Because you can feel that it's genuine.
Because you are aligned with yourself. So I think you're attracting yourself and doing the right things. Are you sometimes trying to be better, to correct things you don't like about yourself ?
Yes. In fact, I think I'm trying to be more professional. I'm in control of my days so I have to rely on myself. But I realized that I avoid doing things that I should do. Some people procrastinate by doing nothing, I avoid doing things by doing other things. So I try to be more disciplined, not to put things off, which also creates anxiety. For example, I have a hard time answering my messages, I open them and I don't answer them. It's important to be respectful.
« I love getting feedbackS, because it reminds me that I don't give a fuck. »
You want to be reliable, recommendable.
Yes, when I lived in Barcelona, my grandmother lived a little further away and I always forgot to go and see her. I said to my mother, "yes I'll go on Saturday", Saturday comes, and finally I go to see a friend. And my dad said to me one day, "It would be nice if you did the things you said you were going to do. And if you're not going to do them, don't say you are."
It's like the name of this brand; "always do what you should do", it's a good reminder. Maybe you should get a tattoo of something that'd remind you of that.
That's a good idea, I'd like that. Or you see I'm often late. But it gives the impression that I don't care about. It's those little things that I would like to polish.
« sometimes, just sitting outside and looking at the sky can be productive. »
And you were talking about these artists that inspire you, today, what do you listen to?
Lately I'm trying to listen more to young Spanish artists, especially for potential collaborations. I've never listened to any Spanish music except the classics, a little flamenco. I think it's also because in Spain there are not many black people and even less in the public figures. It was difficult for me when I was younger to relate, so I gravitated more towards English-speaking artists, Africans. I had a phase where I only listened to Fela Kuti, every day. Through that I discovered artists and bands from West Africa, 70s, 80s. I love Oumou Sangaré, Ali Farka Traoré, Richard Bona.
Do you feel close to your Cameroonian culture?
More and more. We didn't go much with my family because it was expensive to go all together every year. But yes, I think especially on the musical level, I like it a lot because it's very organic. Over there it's integrated in the traditions. Someone is born, we sing, someone dies, we sing, we go to eat, dance, we sing. It's inviting. Even if you're not the best, everyone does it.
And there's something about Fela Kuti that I really like, that after recording a song, he never played it afterwards. It takes so long sometimes to do one song, that at the end you can't take it anymore. I'd like to get to a point where I can do that. More jams, less on my computer.
Do it for the keen of it. That's the real passion, to do for the sake of doing. It gives you pleasure.
Yes. On the way here I was thinking if I had enough money to not have to think about working, I would make music every day.
Would you release it?
I don't know. Not all of it. But I'll have that quietude feeling. If I want to go out and do that, call that person, play guitar, I’ll be able to. I've also realized all the stuff that's behind making music. It kind of takes away the magic.
Do you still have the ambition to “make it”?
Yes, since I was a kid. Sometimes I hear artists in interviews who say "I saw myself playing on a stage in front of thousands of people, having that, that". It's not the image I had but a desire to do something that has an impact. Leave my print.
At New Year, I was with a friend at a small DJ set in a small village of Barcelona, with a very simple life, and she said: I realized that if my life is simple as the people who live here, if I have my family, my job, for me it is enough". And I realized that it would not be enough. I'm not saying I want to be Beyoncé, I don't know exactly what I want to be.
-
Maybe what you told me before, to be able to do music all the time with peace of mind, to know how to listen. And by the way, what brings you peace ?
I'm at peace when I don't have to think about all the things I have to do. During yoga classes, someone tell me what I am gonna do; like in yoga classes, I don't think about anything, I don't have to be in control, I'm asked: "sit down, get up".
Do you make to-do lists? It's stupid but this shit saves your life, it's a second brain.
Yes. Otherwise you forget everything. I have an application on my phone. I put everything on it, even really stupid stuff.
Paper is cool too. The gesture of writing. It's like curving it in the mind. We all know we don't know much but is there anything you really believe in? Anything that can be.
I discovered something called Ayurveda, it's close to yoga but it's more about nutrition and listening to your body. I was seeing a woman, it was a bit like a therapy and she advised me to be only be eating when I was eating, no shows watching. Basically, to be present. And you realize that's all here. All the answers are inside, but we're so subject to so many distractions that it's very difficult to be aware of what your body needs.
I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow in the world but I know I'd like to live well and relax. That's the key to everything. You don't prioritize that "you have to be productive", sometimes just sitting outside and looking at the sky can be productive. Not everything we do has to be related with money making.
Yeah, I totally agree with you. Also, in "Nothing Ever" you sing “nothing ever satisfies me”. Is it still the case?
No, it changes slowly. It's funny because that song is about a lot of different things and it's one of the songs I like the most and everybody relates it to something personal; "Nothing Ever Satifies Me" is very open.
What were you talking about ?
I suffered from eating disorders for many years. I had this feeling of "it's never enough". I wanted to lose all these pounds and then you look at yourself and say "but I'm too skinny". I just found pictures of me younger I'm like "WTF".
And you don't live when you do that. Because you're living in the future, dissatisfied with the present, so you're not living.
Exactly. When you focus on things that don't matter. I wasn't happier than I am now, I was sadder, I wasn't enjoying anything.
It's like people who have to take the subway to get somewhere and focus on what they consider the unpleasant part and don't even try to find a way to enjoy the whole process. Watch people, be in your head, read. Find a way to feel comfortable in things.
But you don't know what's going to happen next. That's also why I try not to be so strict. I’ll see. Maybe in three years I'll say to myself that I don't want to do music anymore. And if that's still the case, good !
What do you dream of ?
I’d love to be able to have a space in Africa. Cameroon will make more sense cause I have family there. But also here, and ideally be able to invite for a few months all the inspiring people I meet. I like the city but I don't want to always be in the city. I may not look like that, but I'm always stressed. Always.
Are you stressed right now ?
Right now, actually not. I’m learning to take it easy. I think my dream is just for my life to be easy.
La légèreté (lightness), en fait.
Yes. Even right now, i’m really fortunate, I wake up, I can absolutely everything I want, I am more financially stable that I have ever been in my life. I’m young, I just moved to London. But I still feel this pressure.
« Only what you really think of yourself really matter. »
It’s like a background anxiety. A tension you feel you don’t even know why. And how do you deal with this ?
I’m trying so much. But I realized it’s good for me to have a certain structure. I’m trying to build a routine that is kind of the same everyday. That's why I decided to get a little room and have another space to work outside. To separate the two, otherwise I feel like I haven't accomplished anything and I feel guilty. You don’t track the progress.
Because words like discipline, organization give off something heavy, rigid and tough. But in fact, if you the take the idea upside down, they are facilitators.
Yeah because you wake up and you're lost between everything you need to do, where to start. t’s tiring. If you wake up in the morning and you already know what you have to do, it’s easier. Otherwise, you do things but you don’t track the progress.
It also struck me when you said : “I lost myself through a magazine and now I need validation”. It's interesting because the fact that you start to have visibility, receive a lot of interest around you is super positive and at the same time it can create this external validation thing. How do you navigate through that ?
I feel like now that I'm confident with who I am, what I do. I‘m learning how to communicate what I want in a clear way without necessarily coming across this arrogance. Cause you know when i started making music I was still this shy person and my worst fear was making people uncomfortable. And when you start doing something like this, it’s really visual; it’s like you wanna do a video and the director suddenly changes everything and you’re like, yes ok this is cool let’s do that but this wasn’t what I first wanted. So it’s kind of finding a way to know how to communicate what’s true to you.
For a while, I had a really toxic relationship with social media. I was not confidentso I was always looking at the positive comments but it didn’t work because only what you really think of yourself really matters. Like if you really love your music someone can come and say that it’s fuckin trash or amazing, you just like, “okay”.
It makes me think about people that always look at themselves in the mirror. People would say “damn it, he loves himself. And yet, when you need to check yourself every time, means you’re unsure. That’s the goal, not to be a slave of this.
Exactly. Just be comfortable. Sometimes I go back to my old patterns — cause it’s so easy to go back – I always bring to myself : “you stop doing that for a reason, because it was not good”. Those “oh I wish I look like” but i’m doing good, I can do anything.